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dialogue 4 with Joy McManus, February 26 1997
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Session Start: Wed Feb 26 11:12:17 1997
*** Now talking in #PORT jaycee: greetings and salutations *** jaycee sets mode: +t jaycee: greetings and salutations *** jaycee changes topic to "Eight Dialogues / PORT MIT / John and Joy" *** jaycee sets mode: +l 10 *** jaycee sets mode: +m *** jaycee sets mode: -m *** ibidem (~ibidem@boisdarc.TAMU-Commerce.edu) has joined #port *** ibidem is now known as spilth spilth: hello? jaycee: oh hey spilth: hi jaycee: Was fingering some folks to check in jaycee: you got on okay spilth: just letting you know I am here jaycee: great spilth: yep jaycee: I have been stressing about all the fragmentation of IRC networks these days spilth: is there going to be a topic? spilth: heh. don't stress. it's the nature of the beast jaycee: well, no, only where we go... jaycee: unless there is something specific... spilth: my connection is decent, but my type is lagging big time spilth: I have 15 minutes. I'm going to reboot and reconnect jaycee: MIT won't be joining us for another 20 min. jaycee: yeah. it seems quick... spilth: cuz this is going to drive me nuts jaycee: okay! jaycee: later spilth: quick? heh. okay *** spilth has quit IRC (Leaving) jaycee: so it goes jaycee: yup -> [irc-2.mit.edu] ping *** ibidem (~ibidem@boisdarc.TAMU-Commerce.edu) has joined #port *** ibidem is now known as spilth jaycee: changing yer name? spilth: i always do john *** carmin: (murph@port_3.media.mit.edu) has joined #port jaycee: Hey, some folks are interested in yer bio -- got some emails today jaycee: hallo carmin: (remo?) spilth: my bio? heh. so i guess i need to write something up, or just spill it here? carmin: Hello this is remo.... jaycee: so this week it looks like things will work out... jaycee: spill! carmin: Everybody here this time? jaycee: spill, that is... jaycee: yes, we're ready to go spilth: hopefully. i have a two hour cap on school irc server. if i get the boot, will attempt to log on with your alternate servers jaycee: how are things in Bean Town? spilth: hello remo carmin: I'll set up the other computers then watch.... jaycee: I suggest you hit the irc.ais.net server first -- the sysop there has opened the machine to all comers jaycee: okay remo spilth: okay carmin: It is quiet here, the way I like it.... jaycee: yes. Hey, remo I heard that Alexandra from Halifax came to the gallery last week! *** jaycee sets mode: +o spilth spilth: 32 year old female, art student, writer --living in a rural berg in Texas. >------------------bio carmin: Who are you talking about? *** jaycee sets mode: +o carmin: jaycee: there you have it carmin: There was a curator here from San Francisco MOMA jaycee: funny how many people in this project are writers -- Alex, Josephine, George jaycee: (yeah that's what Alex said...) jaycee: and you, Joy carmin: It's a writer media.... jaycee: (what software are you using Joy? spilth: more nature of the beast jaycee, i.e., that need to branch outward into the global village jaycee: and to speak in languages... I always am jealous of musicians... spilth: telnet program. this is striking me as odd. i'm used to using more sophisticated software. jaycee: they don't have to cope with language of the speaking kind jaycee: well, telnet works, that's one thing to say about it jaycee: clean and simple spilth: used to punching buttons, seeing vids, and blah and blat jaycee: on the PC MIRC is a good freeware jaycee: I have a John Coltrane CD on... *** PORT2 (murph@port_1.media.mit.edu) has joined #port jaycee: how's your boy doing? spilth: hi i'm frozen jaycee: frozen? spilth: i'm frozen jaycee: isn't it warm in Tejas? jaycee: or screen... jaycee: fucking machines spilth: no. screen spilth: no. screen jaycee: just restart when you need to I'll hum a mantra until you get back spilth: jaycee: there you are *** spilth has quit IRC (Leaving) jaycee: ]strange. Gremlins are in force jaycee: The Tejas days are cold in late Winter. jaycee: Moving jaycee: Moving jaycee: I keep to the center, comatose jaycee: I keep to the center, not comatose jaycee: I keep to the center, comatose jaycee: I keep to the center, not comatose jaycee: I keep to the center, comatose jaycee: I keep to the center, not comatose Session Close: Wed Feb 26 12:06:30 1997 Session Start: Wed Feb 26 12:09:52 1997 *** Now talking in #PORT jacee: whew, that was intense jacee: got a head-rush and got lost... jacee: you there Joy? spilth: my screen froze. no apparent reason spilth: yeah jacee: this a beast with certain natures, for sure jacee: working for this ISP here has opened my eyes to the totally fallible nature of this medium jacee: so it goes spilth: so who is watching this jacee: There are four machines in the center of the gallery at MIT jacee: with projection screens jacee: and I will simply be posting a transcript to the web site spilth: you are actually working for an ISP? *** murph (murph@murph.port.net) has joined #port jacee: and they may use the texts for wall paper sorta... spilth: hello murph jacee: Yeah, i'm a web master for a local provider here in Prescott spilth: i see. interesting. so the text should at least be made interesting to the mind's eye jacee: well, and let your fingers enjoy the typing, too. spilth: well good jacee -y jacee: however that goes... jacee: How's your boy? *** murph has quit IRC (murph has run off in a fit effervescence) jacee: Josephine is a mom away from her 9-year-old, too spilth: i've never really done much ircing. there's a certain formality in the language in this realm. this project of yours is an exception, but i've always found it difficult to find a place in this particular medium. spilth: my kid is fine. he's doing really well. missed out on valentines day, due to the flu--gave a belated one to a little girl who has struck his fancy jacee: definitely -- I've never really used IRC for much except occasional direct communications jacee: they grow up spilth: was afraid she'd tell him she liked him, so he sort of threw it at her and ran jacee: oh, the thrills of it all! jacee: he's ten? jacee: did you ever finish that painting you were fighting with so much? spilth: when i got my new sys, i downloaded pow-wow --blind chat software with jpeg loads. it appealed to me more because the users didn't seem to have to go through the 'initiation' phase irc newbies do. spilth: no. mine is 6 jacee: jpeg loads? jacee: for image avatars? jacee: or so? spilth: no. i'm still working on it, but it's actually going well now. changed up my venue--made it more 3-d than 2. i'm taking sculpture now, so it helps jacee: You are missing class now, right? spilth: jpeg loads so you can pretend you are talking to a live person. actually, you are talking to a live person, but the still pic is supposed to enhance that. funny. most people put up cartoons. i never did jacee: when was the last time we spoke through mediation live? jacee: was that last May? jacee: I know I was in Helsinki spilth: yep jacee: gees, it flies spilth: May? god no. it was in October--cu spilth: i've been using cu since august spilth: still am an active user jacee: I head that way in about seven weeks again jacee: Oh, October, that recent... spilth: met a bunch of cu people in Austin about four weeks ago. interesting experience jacee: seems ages away always. jacee: Constructing the presence of someone is always very, well, constructivist? spilth: time is relative to where you are or where you are going--or where you don't seem to be going at all spilth: maybe jacee. maybe jacee: And since we have only been mediated through this way... jacee: do you have any ideas why there are seven women who responded to the call for participation in this project? spilth: yes. that's what made Austin interesting. noting the distinctions, as well as noting where my projections were right on the mark jacee: and only one man (an old friend who I had to hornswoggle into it...) jacee: projections of the Other? spilth: seven women. well. it's obvious the net is still dominated by the patriarchy, although i've noted a lot of women joining up lately spilth: wow spilth: opposite to what i said spilth: i've seen a lot more men on the net than women jacee: I find it curious, myself, as I collaborate pretty much equally across genders spilth: specifically in chat jacee: yeah, seems there are millions of testosterone-enriched beings out there jacee: beings, that is spilth: i don't. most of my correspondence resulting from chat meets is with men jacee: so maybe it is just a personal thing spilth: no. it's an availability thing. jacee: I'm not concentrating here spilth: for every one woman on a chat board, i can count six men spilth: why aren't you concentrating? jacee: right, but aren't there strong biases as to male motivations -- especially when women are encountered in cyber space? spilth: my typing is lagging. it's irritating because i have to wait for the words to print out on my screen. i can tell when i've made a typo error and i have to stop and wait for it to show up. i think i'm going to let the typos be, just so i can finish my sentences without frustration jacee: I am not sure. It is partly a physical thing where I have to look up at the screen -- not used to that jacee: I am a typer who has to peek at the keyboard jacee: I am usually on my laptop where the screen is direct ahead jacee: yeah, don't worry about spelling... jacee: the head movement... I found when speaking with someone, head movement is minimized when concentration is maximal jacee: but, I actually turned the Coltrane off -- he has never been background music for me... spilth: hmmm. biases. it depends on the female state of mind at the time. if i've been bombarded by wankers in droves, then i may be guarded when i initiate chat with a guy, but i've shed the wankers off pretty much, because of my persona, so i don't know that i go into it with a preconceived notion that all guys want is cybersex anymore spilth: really? how about total body freeze. i get like that when i've done a long chat Session. my body physically aches when i get off. spilth: off line that is. heh jacee: I guess I have no opinion on the motivations anymore. I really exist in a very small fragment of the space jacee: try to keep it a totally personal space jacee: these dialogues, the first two that worked were very intense at the end.. jacee: energy was definitely transferred spilth: i have no music on now. some people seem to need the background noise. sometimes i do, but most of the time, i like to hear the traffic in the background, or the ceiling fan whirring overhead. if i'm steeped in a good chat, i can simulate or construct a voice in my head. as the chat wanes, so the ceiling fan becomes louder, and it accentuates what a solitary venue this really is. spilth: keeps me grounded jacee: illustrating that any human contact is mediated and that the mediation can be overcome to allow "genuine" contact jacee: I keep the center, comatose jacee: comatose jacee: I keep to the center, not comatose spilth: genuine contact. hmmmmmm. i call that breaking the glass. the longer i've been involved in this medium, i.e., simulated chat as a whole, the less inclined i am to find that jacee: genuine contact? spilth: i've struggled with the concept a lot lately. i've been at quite a remove spilth: you said genuine spilth: was recapping on it jacee: I am worried about the way I feel when I walk outside -- unsure of the ground beneath and the impact of visuals on the eyes jacee: you move through your day in different ways now than then? Like an acid haze worn off... spilth: you are worried? you've been on-line too much if you start worrying about it. when i first started using cu--that initial addiction phase, i used to feel surreal when i'd do something realtime, like i was rubber or something. hard to describe. i think the important thing is to find the balance. the cyber thing can be a potent drug jacee: Rubber, yep. jacee: Like encased in silicone gel clarity but jacee: I hike here (well, not with my injury now, but soon again) spilth: the worst day for me was after like a three day stint on cu, plus some sleep in between. my kid came over, and i was both horrified and amazed that i was thinking about how colorful and 3 dimensional he was. it was a real wake-up call jacee: staring at the cactus jacee: ah, I shouldn't be lamenting, or sounding so... spilth: i've been really involved in realtime activities. it's good for me. i stay away from the box[the box being this] and try to stay in tune and touch with what's going on around me. i know it sounds --i make it sound --like a sickness, but in some ways, if you let it be, it is. jacee: choices, and it is merely the effect of the mediation of the physical world in general spilth: maybe jacee: what work are you doing these dyas? jacee: (I always type dyas like that...) jacee: maybe a new word spilth: are we the only ones here? i could have sworn someone else logged on as well jacee: ]yes there are the MACHINES in BOSTON jacee: WATCHING jacee: US spilth: i've been taking a class in totalitarian ideologies --all consuming, where my head is concerned. also, 3-d sculpture, and i just finished my CU-SeeMe visual project. It's up at a new york based art site. jacee: in a quiet gallery nestled in the Ivy-choked halls of MIT jacee: You are almost done with school, no, half-way... jacee: That's what I hate, half-knowing someone, and I lose FACTS in the flurry of bits and jacee: Do you start with "The Annals of Imperial Rome"? jacee: Tacitus spilth: i think the reason i'm going off on a tear about vid chat--even though we are on blind chat now[real blind chat for me --i broke my glasses two days ago] is i don't think it is all a good thing. i've been off on a rant about the "Let's Keep It Fun! at all Costs" attitude inherent in chat lines. maybe it is like real life. we all choose to see what we want to see--to reach our ideal, but sometimes that does not come without a sordid penalty which lie jacee: I recall reading that when, for god's sake, when I was a young teenager for some reason jacee: and I couldn't distinguish between that and the newspaper jacee: Well, mediation by glass is a significant thing. I started an essay about that (being a glasses-person also *** ibidem (~ibidem@boisdarc.TAMU-Commerce.edu) has joined #port jacee: glass -- the most abundant MATERIAL of this material incarnation -- and we are in full-tile mediation through it from the beginning... *** spilth has quit IRC (Leaving) jacee: WINDOWS *** ibidem is now known as spilth jacee: banged out. spilth: shit jacee: Glasses spilth: okay. i'm back jacee: Cars (VR machines) jacee: SIMMS jacee: amorphous silica. jacee: SHIT? jacee: you are reincarnated? spilth: two hours is a long time for a one on one type chat jacee: cameras jacee: yeah, you will get carpal spilth: shit as in referring to the freeze jacee: hell, you should have heard me in the empty house here this morning with tech troubles jacee: I was screaming jacee: raging spilth: yeah? nah. i'm used to this, but used to it in a group text environment jacee: yeah, jacee: that is different jacee: ono-on-one is just that. and the mediation on top jacee: not a reference to Yoko, that's one-on-one, of course ;) jacee: breaking glasses is traumatic. Not seeing a shock spilth: i'm rather boring. don't know that i can support public interest with my text jacee: have one near-sighted eye and one far-sighted... jacee: You don't need to support the public, that's their issue... jacee: Your words have value, period. jacee: If people's words lose value, well, it is worse than burning books. spilth: so other than this project, exactly how much simulated chat time are you getting in or participating in. spilth: would like to mention the mail art thing, by the way. got a letter from some guy named gEra--maintainer of artepostale site jacee: Of course, that is one question in this culture -- valuation of someones words jacee: As I said, I don't do chat other than this project spilth: he said he was going to link me, but after looking at my page, he felt it had nothing to do with mail art. i disagree. if you take the word mail art literally, you might be able to say just that, but my belief is in the concept of the "eternal network." i see this as an extension of that theme spilth: what's the site about? jacee: Well, people, since Ray Johnson passed -- are institutionalizing "Mail Art" spilth: anyway. i wrote him about it. i have no idea whether he will link me or not. doesn't matter. i'm amazed though, at the purist attitude of some mail artists, i.e., keeping the culture in the post. spilth: why don't you do chat other than this project? jacee: which never had that problem before spilth: brb. pee lurk jacee: huh? jacee: people are into categorizing, it's safe. spilth: i had to pee john spilth: brb + be right back spilth: = that is jacee: I don't have the time to chat. I write email and letters et al... Not enough people on IRC for me to do often spilth: yeah, i know all about the institutionalizing spilth: why did you give up CU-SeeMe? jacee: I think to even address the fact of institution is to give it credence and power jacee: no tech support -- my Mac can't deal, and I am living hand to mouth jacee: The complete movement of the past two years... spilth: i see jacee: All out of a suitcase still jacee: , well, three bags jacee: That's why I chose IRC -- since it can be done at a pretty low tech level spilth: i'm doing a project on it, for credit--original research, i.e., an observation on the social structure of public reflectors spilth: i won't actually write the paper until this summer, but jacee: there are Millions more people off line that on, a dumb statement, but jacee: while I work with many who are in this field, many are not, and even the ones who are aren't especially savvy with much more than email... Like a specialty spilth: i have quite a bit of prelim survey work done, as well as a printed web based bibliography jacee: You may have trouble documenting, huh? jacee: will be anecdotal, I suppose jacee: you have talked with sysops jacee: , the techies spilth: that's true, i.e., the irc low tech thing. jacee: I still can't find much out about the destruction of IRC -- not there are over 50 separate networks spilth: documenting? no. the ephemeral nature of web spells yes, but that is why i'm printing out the references in whole form, rather than just compiling a list jacee: after the beginning in Finland of it all with EFnet jacee: right jacee: Please send me a copy... You should consider publishing it on NetTime jacee: when yer done spilth: put it this way. cyber communications will probably be different a decade from now--probably sooner. i can't gauge where they will go...but, for now, this is this and nobody is documenting it. i think it's important spilth: so i'm documenting spilth: for some people, this IS a lifestyle. for others, pure amusement and mind fodder jacee: very soon, I think, the character is changing VERY fast jacee: regulation and policing is the name of the game now (and commerce jacee: ) jacee: Do you think this medium further destabilizes a given social structure? jacee: or is just "something else," another way of being jacee: Damn, sometimes I wish I wasn't such a pessimist... spilth: oh. this one will be published. the head of the journalism department is into it too. he's taking on another angle, i.e., social structure on the international refs. he's German. so we'll have comparative views in documented form jacee: Nettime is a good place for such things -- an on-line listserv for exactly such docs, with the top readers/writers in media theory and criticism -- worldwide (i.e. net wide) spilth: policing. interesting concept. you are saying it exists here..? jacee: I can keep you posted and either forward it to them or give you the address -- it's mediated by Pit Schulz in Berlin jacee: and Gerrt Lovink in Amsterdam jacee: Geert jacee: Are you doing any publishing now? spilth: in interactive vid chat, on the public reflectors, i.e., the spaces like this, only with video, i don't think policing exists. censorship exists, but it is the standard kind, i.e., foul language and such, but like last week. did you read the stuff i wrote on my page about the guy who attempted suicide on vid? jacee: like in the univ paper? jacee: no, I didn't that piece... I'll check it out... spilth: it turned out to be a hoax, or so i heard. actually, it wasn't. he did attempt suicide. it just wasn't successful. i watched this guy shoot heroin. i'm the only one who saw it, sans the ref sysop. when i first logged into the ref, i was instructed to 'close Ace's vid" and to ignore him. jacee: Well, the policing is in access alone spilth: when i asked why? i was told he was threatening suicide and they wanted "the problem" to go away jacee: that's all and that's effectively enough jacee: like policing a Feb penitentiary jacee: Fed spilth: so when you talk about policing, i think about a different kind of law, i.e., what i typed above....the idea of "let's keep it fun at all costs." jacee: you only need to guard the walls and gates jacee: and let hell reign inside the enchanted kingdom jacee: right spilth: no. not publishing. i was asked to write an article on the distinction between simulated projection and realtime perception of net people i've met. haven't written it yet spilth: i'm not over the suicide thing. when i told the reflector it was too late....that he had already done it, the response was, "damn. why'd you have to open his video." spilth: i became the betrayer. he had nothing to do with it jacee: well, plz keep me posted when you post something to your site (or mail the text direct to me if you can) spilth: after, like within 5 minutes, the ref text went into usual mind cheese text mode. spilth: i was floored spilth: i did john. i wrote you about it last week. jacee: You're talking more the social, uh, reactions and mores and how they "act out" in the space, possibly? jacee: banning "ugly" people spilth: yes jacee: I am wondering about my mail -- I have been having significant troubles with my machine/connection and am suspicious that I am losing things... jacee: Well, sysops are who they are... What is the corollary in real space -- a party host? a game-show host, a referee, a? jacee: I find the dom energy is the dyslexic cocktail party idea, where the slippages in communication are so great, well, I dunno, maybe like a rave or something, when the spilth: but they don't ban. they simply ignore. in cyber terms, ignoring the participant is death, like in an old-time culture--banishment equals death because the individual survives within a social structure. without that structure to support them, no resources exist for that individual to survive. i this case, lack of reciprocal text equals text spilth: sorry jacee: shit gets so intense that comm stops and there is only the crowd/party energy spilth: equals death spilth: party host makes a good correlation jacee: ignoring is ignoring... See, the other side of this is 1) dialogue, under the phrase genuine, as I have said before (after Buber) jacee: and 2) establishment of community spilth: this particular sysops method on suicide day was to kill the reflector, or "burp" it so it would take a physical effort to log back on. in other words, he rid the reflector of suicide ace because ace was already strung out on the floor. spilth: a friend of mine noted that it was like a feeding ground. everyone goes into it with their own ideas and own things to spew. nobody is getting any satisfaction because they are too busy typing out their own. still, everyone has a place to spew, so in effect, they ARE getting fed, to whatever degree jacee: does this act surprise you, or confirm something? spilth: the community is conditional jacee: doesn't community engender something more than spewing together -- seems that loneliness is the ascendant paradigm spilth: surprised and confirmed spilth: both spilth: surprised at the lack of human compassion and group criteria to maintain a pleasant strain at all costs, and confirmed because i suspected that long before it happened. spilth: the shitty part was, i met these same people in Austin. jacee: pleasant is a loaded word in this use, too, eh? spilth: and it made me question what the hell i was doing there jacee: no doubt jacee: pleasant society (is German burgermeister and kapelle-padre in 1944) jacee: looking the other way, feeding eyes on other things. Looking at the right things is imperative jacee: feeding the soul spilth: i DID act. i fucking called tokyo--main police number, with his ip info and snail addresses i had. that was an exercise in insanity. i don't speak japanese, for one. also, try explaining interactive video chat and what i saw and to make it seem logical. to top it off, i spoke with an "officer honda." nothing wrong with the name 'honda" but in this case, i felt like i was living out a bad japanese b movie, like godzilla. don't know how to describe it jacee: compassion is a soulful and painful thing jacee: mad humor jacee: plus or minus jacee: plus ou moins jacee: ups-guy is here... moment spilth: well. in hindsight, i feel like i did what i would do in any given situation spilth: okay. eating a sandwich jacee: well, really a non-cyber thing, in a way, only happened to act out on screen, could have been live spilth: perhaps the horrific aspect is in wondering if the others, who did nothing but chastise, would, in effect, act that way if they had been faced with this realtime. it makes me question how much validity there really is in this form of communication jacee: photographic paper from NYC, going to make art-objects this week, for a gallerist in NYC spilth: and seriously, just how authentic are the words spilth: you are? jacee: well, if one imbues ones words with value, what else can one do? jacee: no value, no reason to be saying... Words w/o action are nothing and actions w/o words pointless spilth: well. if there is no value to the words, then why bother, you know? spilth: what is the point jacee: you have to make value to them... jacee: like live what one speaks... the classic ways of matching all aspects of ones outward personae jacee: with an organic whole and not a disparate collection of conflicting energies... jacee: okay, I end up in a Zen corner usually spilth: my latest project--completed, anyway, was bo bo bear. he's a fluffy and appealing teddy made out of 4 cartons of used cigarette butts i scrounged. part of a theme i'm following, under the heading of FUN HOUSE. --what is appealing to the eye is not always what is. from a distance, teddy is great. up close, he is a great symbol of nastiness and decay. he stinks too. i like that jacee: This is why I find it absolutely necessary, as an "artist," or, better yet, as a human, spilth: actions without words. mmmmm. i think actions take on a language of their own. sometimes the physical act of saying them is not necessary jacee: to occupy the ideological and personal space that is me, in a personal way, that is, as nothing more or less than an Other jacee: who passes through various situations and lives and tries to jacee: , well, I am sounding stupid here jacee: tries to BE HERE NOW... jacee: That's why I have always had a part of me in opposition to object-making as a means and end in art spilth: i want to ask you why you felt this project was important. when i mentioned i was participating, i was asked what the intent was--can you elaborate on that? jacee: Teddy, I guess the humor is what carries me into works like that, nothing else jacee: as humor speaks about the artist as a human being jacee: I cannot express intent in a sense other than this is what I have decided would carry some meaning in the situation jacee: I was invited to make a proposal, and if, internally I detect pretension (in meself), I cannot do a project, and this was the first thing I synthesized that satisfied that lack of pretension spilth: oh. it's a sinister kind of humor, straight out of my heart and psyche. in an underlying way, teddy represents the cyber, although that was not my intent, i.e., the packaging or objectification of packaging-making it ideal in cyber form because one can choose to believe it's so, vs. what is up close. jacee: it is emphasizes the being, the presence, both of which are, IMHO, sadly lacking in this medium and in culture/society in general... jacee: Well, hmor, none the less jacee: Yes, the packaging is the only difference. jacee: I mean, the packaging for me is not cyber-vs-real, but simply the mediation we face as soulful entities in physical incarnation jacee: , so cyber is simply another form... spilth: okay. so the project is based on promoting a lack of ego? that is what you are saying? i was talking more about the logistics, i.e., what you felt this would accomplish. okay. you answered that. do you think people who are watching are able to draw out that meaning in a universal sense? jacee: that is heavily mediated by GLASS (again), amorphous silica, CRT, CCD, etc... fundamental physical mediation... jacee: but nothing new jacee: Well, ego/id, I really can't speak to that -- I mean, I see the ego in more the Buddhist sense -- as a source of sufferation jacee: Well it accomplishes formal criteria in very practical ways, and it accomplishes other criteria, like personal ones for me, in the sense, it fits into what I do as an artist (also formally -- networking) jacee: communication/dialogue jacee: I dunno. In very long retrospect, I recall a fascination with a similar expression (formally) in the movie, my dinner w/Andre jacee: Being involved and not jacee: being involved spilth: well. maybe it is new, in the sense of the net being relatively young. the veils we slide between each other in realtime are self-inflicted. other than the act of electing to use this medium, i.e., subjecting one's self to that veil, the cyber aspect carries it's own wall. in realtime terms, you can drop the veil--here, you cannot --or not without having to face a wall which has little to do with choice. it simply exists on its own. like pandora's b spilth: i remember you writing about that on your home page spilth: and taped conversations spilth: hey. can i plug my URL here, just for the hell of it? jacee: I truly believe that dialogue is the core of any activism jacee: Sure -- your URL is on the web site with the schedule jacee: also jacee: and I will post yer BIO this evening jacee: along with this text jacee: I think that the cyber wall is principally the same as the wall that a painting imposes, or a screen imposes spilth: ooops. i trailed too long...pandoras box in the sense of seeking out what we are curious about, but not without penalty. we meet people from all over the world, and sometimes, strike a good balance....find good karma, and then, we are faced with the problem of distance--the same distance we were trying to tap into to begin with spilth: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2929 jacee: material mediation. jacee: Well, I frequently (more often than not) have a physical relationship with people I communicate with in cyber space jacee: I am a traveler jacee: moving in time jacee: and cohabiting jacee: with many people spilth: maybe john. i'm not sure. the cyber wall gives no consideration toward the fact it is--it does not care whether people are pounding on it. an artist, on the other hand, chooses selectively what the receiver will or will not see jacee: I guess my cyber-existence is in a sync and dance with the flesh spilth: the cyber wall exists separately from the people who are using it spilth: separately jacee: Why is it a wall? jacee: why does it separate? jacee: all the time? spilth: yes, but that is outside of the boundaries of cyber chat or correspondence, i.e., your travels. many of us aren't capable of 'making it real" due to financial constrictions or obligations jacee: like the wall of flesh -- that is, we can become one, but not really, in the Act jacee: Maybe a wall is everywhere around us jacee: like, the wall of language jacee: language jacee: my marriage was subject to that jacee: wall spilth: because it is. seriously. the wall is no more than a part of the tool we use to communicate with--this being the medium. they go hand in hand. you can simulate a permeation of that wall, but that is in the mind. you can't break this distance when using this medium. it's the physical distance i am referring too, and the limitations wrought by pure text, or in more advanced software, delayed video and lack of voice inflection or physical response jacee: I find the same things operating to separate me in reality as in cyber-space jacee: uh, is it different, say, than standing and seeing the Other, yet being separated by a wall of glass? jacee: (time and distance, which are interchangeable), yes, text limitations, delay, but can;t these things be present, these limitations to one degree or another in other, more physical ways? spilth: i guess the difference between us, i.e., the opinions on this wall, is that you are looking at them more in an esoteric sense, i.e., like the wall in your marriage equals the wall in cyber. i see it differently. i see it as the distinction between contrived walls --self-created, and working within the boundaries of walls which exist despite whether we want them to or not. jacee: I do not Know you, do I know you? spilth: i thought about that. actually considered doing an art installation with a wall of glass. i think one might feel the effect with a wall of glass, but logic says they know all it takes is to walk around the glass sheet to make it so. you can't do that, for instance, if a friend lives in california and you don't have travel fare. it's limited as an example or metaphor jacee: I dislike not being understood, and that is a motivation to overcome communications barriers of any type, I guess spilth: for me, my thoughts on this are based on some SERIOUS login time on the chat boards. i didn't feel this way when i first started. i had an ideal. but time and experience, both positive and negative, has jaded me somewhat jacee: Well, metaphoric examples are well-suited in the discursive space of galleries, why not... as long as it is not too simple a metaphor jacee: well, can you compare our (complete) relationship to other cyberrelationships? jacee: that you have jacee: I think you were jaded a bit before you hit cyberspace, just by life like many of us... Session Close: Wed Feb 26 13:47:41 1997 Session Start: Wed Feb 26 13:48:32 1997 *** Now talking in #PORT jaycee: faugh, that was a burp jaycee: did I miss anything? jaycee: glad this thing auto-connects -- what a concentration-stopper jaycee: gimme a smoke, dear jaycee: you there? spilth: because ours stemmed from something different, and that was the commonality of mail art. i put it into a different category, but if i was to compare it, i'd say we are on again off again--sometimes in sync, but more in sync when we were first learning about each other through e-mail spilth: no. i waited spilth: yep spilth: i'm here jaycee: have I ever mailed you anything? I know we were on some lists I guess, oh wait, you did that project, right jaycee: Yes, spilth: however, we still continue to maintain a thread of e-mail contact jaycee: Well, I would say that different category is the space where I want my "art" to be in spilth: with the cyber chat, the e-mail is intense and overflowing--for a limited time. you meet new people and the old dries up spilth: that is what i've experienced spilth: maybe john. kind of like comparing oranges to apples though spilth: because we never really had a chat board base jaycee: I am in contact with friends of 25-plus years. That is what I do... on the ground and through whatever way I can spilth: other than that odd ended meeting on cornell a few months back jaycee: that's where I came into mail-art spilth: i have long term contacts too, just not contacts which were founded on chat lines jaycee: simply because I used the available means (post) to sustain intensive contact with people spilth: i really think it's different jaycee: that's how I see cyber. You see it as a field of inquiry, possibly? Am I wrong, where you make explorations into the nature of social phenomena jaycee: I don't dispute the difference, I have only concentrated on the shared principles or operations between all the mediums I pass through jaycee: it spilth: well. if i felt that removed from it, i could probably say yes, but i think i simply use it, i.e., find significance in it because i have this incessant need to feel connected outside of my geographic reason. spilth: i have no other sound or concrete basis beyond that jaycee: ';s the only way I can justify to an external "audience" why I use the variety of things I use spilth: sometimes it's the shit. not having a nobler purpose jaycee: well, art school teaches that you have to have a REASON, for god's sake, which is one of the most stupid things spilth: yeah spilth: true jaycee: has taken me years to shed that, and I ain't done shedding it yet, but I hope I am on my way! spilth: reasons are good things. maybe having to have a justifiable reason is not spilth: i think our time is coming to a close? spilth: i'm started to hang here spilth: my software, that is jaycee: I mean, I abhor being labeled or following a discourse (line of discourse) that is limited by artifice applied under a certain form or social situation jaycee: mediated formality spilth: i do too jaycee: and, facing the fact that most modern (and old) social situations are replete with this, I lean way back, take it in, and try to ignore or subvert the artifice... jaycee: I have gotten stung a number of times, cause when you break codes, you can be held in high social ridicule, but I don';t care, cause I have a grounding with a circle of good friends jaycee: who are humane and real where ever they exist... jaycee: Uh, yeah, I am preaching, sorry spilth: some of this, today, was a push. i am verbose, but i'm not used to doing the one on one. it makes for agenda, i.e., calling it a project. lends to some pressure on my end spilth: it makes it different spilth: a no. it isn't your preaching spilth: it's the criteria for a specified time and the action of producing text spilth: it's like a performance jaycee: I hope it didn't impinge -- I know it is difficult, I hadta jump-start today, too spilth: you weren't really preaching jaycee: just passion spilth: you were ranting on your own tangent, which is okay on this end. i do it all the time jaycee: Yes, the timing thing, I knew was a stickler for you -- you are more freeform normally, I realize spilth: i really am. carmin: This is remo...I've been following this conversation more than most and found it quite fascinating.... jaycee: I like the formal restrictions, but dislike them being imposed arbitrarily jaycee: as long as they don carmin: many time I wanted to jump in.... spilth: the thing about the chat board...you have to want to be there. with the vid chat, if you want to observe, you can lurk while the group plays, or simply post your video. jaycee: right spilth: but here, in blind chat, you have to act jaycee: right carmin: now that you are at a close...I thought I would just say thanks.... spilth: or people don't think you are there spilth: what did you find fascinating carmin: ? remo? curious jaycee: well spilth: not a problem. enjoyed it jaycee: my pleasure jaycee: Maybe we can do something when I am working in Lapland in June jaycee: they may not be watching per se jaycee: I put Pancho Sanchez on now... Salsa. mm carmin: the personal nature in which you spoke of you art and life pursuits... jaycee: I remember the days in eLAy carmin: It's like eavesdropping on a private conversation. jaycee: Well, Remo, Leslee said she had a nice conversation with you last week, in the stead of me! jaycee: I'm jealous jaycee: Joy, thanks very much for participating, I will be in touch, and after I get a shiatsu treatment in an hour, I will post the text on the site at spilth: CU john. come over into my realm spilth: i HATE superficiality spilth: which can sting you on a chat board spilth: i.e., that need to be "real spilth: " spilth: i'm going to make some coffee. i need to start working on homework. carmin: Yes, she was fun.... spilth: look forward to seeing the chat post john jaycee: http://neoscenes.net/eight/eight.html carmin: if I knew that it wasn't going to work, I would have tried to fill in.... spilth: okay. bye remo spilth: bye john carmin: bye spilth: got it. thank you *** spilth has quit IRC (Leaving) jaycee: Okay, I have CU set up here, but the camera is not functioning well... Just email me with a date/time carmin: are you talking to me? jaycee: Okay, remo, see you next week! Glad everything worked! jaycee: (no, to Joy, but she left...) jaycee: cheers carmin: we do cu-seeme on tuesdays and fridays... carmin: join us if you can.... jaycee: okay carmin: do you want to create excerpts of your shows for the walls? jaycee: well, the full texts are there, for someone to grab -- I don't have facility to do any printing here, but... jaycee: I will think about some fragments... possibly carmin: You don't have to print, just do the editing.... carmin: you don't have to, but it would give you more control, if you want it. jaycee: okay... I am a terrible editor, usually rely on fate, but lemme look at it... jaycee: gotta run to my shiatsu Session for my back... jaycee: cheers carmin: see you later, and thanks for good work.... Session Close: Wed Feb 26 14:12:03 1997 |
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